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FIRST® Robotics Competition (FRC®)

2005: TRIPLE PLAY™

Extreme disappointment Philadelphia edition

ChiefDelphi Forums (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
- Regional Competitions (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
- - Extreme disappointment Philadelphia edition (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36603)

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Ken358 03-26-2005 11:56 PM

Sorry for the negative connotation in the title. We just got back from the Philadelphia Regional. Overall we had a great time. Congratulations to the winners. (365, 316, 56) You were a powerhouse alliance, and absolutely deserved to win. We were honored to be on the field with you.

We apologize for tipping 56 in the finals. We inadvertently cheated everyone out of exciting third match. I just want to make sure that no one thinks that we did it purposely. We would have much preferred to keep them upright so that the matches could have been settled on the field rather than in the judge’s huddle.

My disappointment comes from the feeling that the announcer and judges seemed to paint us as an overly aggressive team in the finals. I hope that everyone understands that that is not what we are about. We are an offensive robot. We rarely play defense.

In the qualifying matches our drivers always erred on the side of caution. Our motto is “It’s more fun when everyone plays.” Since we are not a “home town team” and not very well known at the Philly regional I am concerned about perpetuating this perceived image of extreme aggressiveness. I hope the teams that we played with and against can attest to the fact that we played our matches fairly, graciously, professionally and with integrity. We did not win the SBPLI Chairman’s Award by being a rouge team.

Thank you so much 293 for choosing us and 834 for playing with us. Sorry if we let you down. The number of impressive robots at this competition was mind blowing. 103 was amazing!!!! 365 you are the whole package. We would be proud to be half the team that you are. The field was so deep with talent that many qualified robots unfortunately did not get to go to finals.

By the way, I am not knocking the judges or announcer. I realize that you guys are volunteers. You are my heroes for making the commitment to students and to FIRST. There are not many people in this world that could or would do the job you do.

I was, by far, most proud of our students who, while noticing that a lot of pinning, bumping grinding and tipping went unnoticed in other matches, often against us, handled the disappointment of being disqualified with dignity.

Respectfully,
Ken Tiu
Team 358

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Bill Moore 03-27-2005 05:18 AM

Ken, believe it ot not, Team 365 knows how disappointed you are. Two weeks ago, we lost the Pittsburgh Championship on an identical DQ. Our alliance was DQ'd for unintentionally tipping another robot. It indeed leaves an empty feeling when an unintended and unexpected result decides a match.

Anyone who believes that Team 358 was "extremely aggressive" wasn't watching the competition. Your robot was one of the best there, a fast, capable capper with an intelligent, experienced driver who played the game cleanly every time out -- including the one unfortunate call in the finals. After studying the scouting sheets Friday evening, we knew that if you weren't picking teams, you would be picked early for playoffs. You have a high quality team, and it has been fun to visit and compete with you. We hope you are able to come back to Philly next year and keep this Regional one of the highest competitive Regionals FIRST has.

If the announcer seemed to emphasize that aggressive play would not be tolerated, he certainly did not mean that to be personally directed to you or your team. Ron Partridge is one of FIRST's best announcers, and he is just as disappointed that a match has to be decided on such calls as you are. If you ever get the opportunity to meet him (Championships), please do. You will find he is one of the nicest people you have ever met. Ron also is responsive to making changes to how he calls the games. A few years back someone pointed out to him a comment that he made announcing that reflected negatively on a team. When he realized how his comments could be misunderstood, he changed the way he made those calls so that they would not be offensive to the team. He cares very much about FIRST and also about the teams at his competitions, and he would not say anything that would bring discredit to any team.

Good Luck at Championships, it would be fun if we were in the same division, but I think our Team numbers may be too close to allow that. I'll have to check out Koko Ed's latest update of the possible divisional breakdown and see.

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QT_Angel 03-27-2005 06:31 AM

Hey you guys, I'm from the Philly area and believe me, our team doesn't think anything of you besides your an awesome team! and you should at least be happy you made it that far! my whole team was so into it, more than when we played! So i think you guys did awesome, and that your always be winners in my book. sorry at 6 am in the morning, I'm to lazy to think of anything more. Hope to hear from you guys, and good luck at nationals! Oh yeah 358, thanks for playing frisbee with us during lunch, the unofficial frisbee team at my school likes to verse us so we're having a giant match coming up in April, if you care to join us let us know, you guys gave a giant slap to the player's face, hah they actually thought they were good lol

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jfischer 03-27-2005 07:45 AM

I'm from Team 56 and I think you guys had a great team. You were clearly one of the best offensive robots in Philly. I thought your team was playing good, clean defense when you tipped us over. From my point of view you were not overly aggressive and I think the judges over reacted.

I also know how you feel, we were eliminated the previous week in the NJ Regional on a controversial decision.

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sw293 03-27-2005 10:17 AM

Re: Ken358 post

You have nothing to apologize for. You played the finals and every other match with great class. And without your robot, we probably would have never made it to the finals in the first place.

To Robbe: If we had to lose to anyone there, then we are glad it was you. After getting hosed at Trenton, you guys really deserved to win a regional. I only wish you didn't do it at our expense.

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petek 03-27-2005 10:24 AM

Team 358 has every reason to hold your heads high and take pride in a great showing in Philadelphia. You played a clean and consistent offensive game throughout the competition and your alliance earned your place in the finals.

Your strategy in the semis, where you out-scored our alliance (#1 seeded 1184, always strong 484, and ourselves) to take the win in two rounds showed that you knew how to play the game fairly. From the scores (62-33 & 73-19), I think everyone can see that your alliance's strategy was to win by scoring tetras, not defending against us. This could have been a risky strategy against 103, and no one would have blamed you for assigning a robot to block us, but you let the game go as intended. We salute you.

In my opinion, the event with Robbe in the finals was a normal part of FIRST competition - not aggressive defense. However, the referees in Philadelphia chose to take a very literal interpretation of G25 - even penalizing Team 56 when, during seeding, another robot tipped over after running into them. Though I personally disagree with some of their calls, I also know refereeing is a tough, thankless, job, with little opportunity for rest throughout the event. And, with six robots on the field, they certainly have their work cut out for them!

If FIRST is looking for a take-home message this year, I think it is that they need to be more specific in the rules covering robot contact and to ensure that the referees receive the guidance and training needed to administer the rules consistently and fairly.

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Revolverx7 03-27-2005 11:27 AM

I aplaud all of the teams at Philly for seeing through the "unnecessary roughness" call to see that our team was not the brute that the finals made us out to be, but the fast and agile capper we like to be. Although I would have liked to loose by the score and not by the refs, the finals were exciteing in their own way.

I hope to see all you at Atlanta!

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Kyle 03-27-2005 11:44 AM

Re: Ken358 post

You are not just half the team we are, you are right with us, I can only think of 2 teams that won a Regional and a Chairmans at the same event this year, 358 and 365. The best of luck to your amazing team and I can't wait to see you guys at Nats.

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Revolverx7 03-27-2005 12:37 PM

Re: Kyle post

That means a lot to us coming from you. Thanks.

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DarkJedi613 03-27-2005 01:13 PM

Thanks for all your kind words. Hopefully we'll see you all at Nationals (and so far it seems as if we're next to MOE - last time I checked at least). Or if not, perhaps a different regional next year. :)

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Carlo 03-27-2005 01:29 PM

First, I'd just like to state that it is a rare occasion I login to post, however I'm always reading the boards. There are few times I feel my input would be of benefit, but being a driver for team 365, as well as a member often found in the pit, I'd like to put my input in on team 358.

I could sit here and tell you all the wonderful aspects of team 358, but I'd prefer to sum it up in one line. Simply put, Team 358 is awesome.

I know all too well what it feels like to lose the finals due to a disqualification. But team 358 has nothing to be ashamed of. Your group is an awesome bunch, and have nothing to be ashamed of or upset about. You had a great robot, and second place is an awesome feat.

When our teammate was called for tipping, which was on a low shot, without lifting the robot (This was were the discrepency between our call and your call differed. While yours was unintentional, it was a high hit. None of us believed your hit was intentional, but according to the rules, a high hit which results in a tipped robot is grounds for DQ'ing the alliance), it was hard to swallow the loss without getting upset with the refs. I was the alliance captain, and when they came over for an explanation I simply told them, ''It was your call to make, and I can't dispute it as I did not see it from your viewpoint." It's not easy being a ref, and they're never sure what was intentional and what wasn't.

So thanks to all the teams there... we had a blast.

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ConKbot of Doom 03-27-2005 02:17 PM

I didn't get a chance to pay much attention to the rounds, I was either in the pits, driving, or absolutely wiped out, but I did notice the finals. That call definitely did smell. I would think that for something like that if the alliance that 56 was on protested it, they could do something about it.

The thing that shocked me was that during one of the qualifying matches we knocked over the team with the scissor lift, (forgot the team number :-/ ) but we didn't touch them. They were trying to cap the center goal, and the tetra was just dangling there, we tried to snag it from them, and as we got out hook on it, we both backed up and they started to go over. They ran onto the side goal and that finished them off. I was expecting to get called on that one. But there was no penalty. I asked the head ref if there was a penalty, and he said it was determined that we had gotten entangled and we were both backing off, and they fell over in the process. So no penalty. That was a shocker there. I was just hoping to get the tetra away from them, not knock them over.

The penalties and disqualifications this year are definitely something that plays a major role. I'm glad that we didn't get any penalties at Philly. The announcer got us mixed up with one of our teammates in one match, but we didn't get a penalty. I was happy about that.

Good luck to those going to nationals

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357_dudeman 03-27-2005 02:36 PM

Hey 358! You guys were great on and off the field. Don't worry about a bad image because no one (hopefully) believes that you guys were being malicious. Good Job! hope to see you guys next year. Thanks for that game during lunch! (Maybe we could get a rematch in :D )

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DarkJedi613 03-27-2005 04:06 PM

Re: Carlo post
Thanks for the compliments. We're happy with how well we did, just disappointed in the way we lost.

I don't want a big discussion on this, but your information is slightly wrong, we hit 56 with the back of our robot, we hit them with our frame, not our arm. It was a low hit, not a high one. I just want to clarify that. The penalty was on "rough play", not tipping them over or hitting up high.

I realize how hard it is to be a referee - I ref soccer games every weekend during the spring and fall - and I understand why they made the call, but what really bothered me and the other drivers was how long it took to make the call and the actual rule saying that the officials look at our intention - it should be a concrete rule (like the loading zone one - no matter what if you hit them in the loading zone its a 30 point penalty - whether you meant to or not). The volunteers do a great job and try to make it as fair as possible, good job guys.

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Revolverx7 03-27-2005 06:43 PM Just as my teamate has just stated the hit was low. In fact it was at low as possible, about an inch off the ground. To further this I was backing up into them, putting our arm on the complete opposite side of the robot (our arm does not rotate to the back). If the call was for high hitting and it was actually true I would have had no problem with the call, but a frame to frame pushing match should never end in a DQ.

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abeD 03-27-2005 08:18 PM

Just to add from what I had seen at UCF. At UCF no robots were DQ'd for tipping. But there were several occasions where there were low frame to frame pushing that resulted in tipping with no penalites or DQ's (I think UCF was also before the update with the aggresive penalty).

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sw293 03-27-2005 08:28 PM

The most pitiful thing about this call is it seems that nobody knows for sure what it was for. Some seem to think it was intentional tipping, others say it was hitting high, and yet others believe it was for "excessive rough play."

I was the 293-358-834 alliance captain, and you better believe that when I went to express my displeasure to the head ref I asked what the call was for. He told me it was on 358 for intentionally tipping 56. When we talk about "excessive rough play," we are referring to the act of tipping 56 over. There was NO high hitting going on. If you think there was, you should disabuse yourself of that notion.

Do you all know why we are having a dispute over what the call was for? Because the head ref did not do a very good job explaining his decisions. If you went out to ask him to explain his interpretation of the rules, he conveyed an attitude of displeasure and impatience. When you did get an explanation out of him, it usually didn't make sense. You left with more questions than you had answers.

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Mark McLeod 03-27-2005 09:37 PM

I need to come to the defense of the head referee at Philly.

While I have no insight into the interaction between either of the alliance captains and the referee on the field, I must say the referee was concerned enough to seek me out in the pits during closing ceremonies to explain the decision of the referee staff. He was also looking for 293 and 834, but they were all already in the stands and I don’t know if he was able to talk directly with them. While we may not agree with his interpretation of the defensive play between 358 and 56, I do respect him for the responsibility he obviously feels, and has undertaken, to make and seek us out to explain such a very tough decision. He made an honest attempt to keep the event safe and the play fair. He and the other referees could not be everywhere or see everything at once, but they made great efforts to do so.

Since I was talking to the head referee in the pits when my team was called up as finalists, I unfortunately missed shaking the hand of each of the referees who worked so hard throughout this event, but I did get to thank the head referee for making this event possible.

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DarkJedi613 03-27-2005 10:35 PM

I agree, the referees made the call they believe should have been made, which is at their discretion. But it just seems as though they did not want to explain it or anything - afterall they never even came over to talk to our alliance about it (and since we couldn't hear the announcer) we (as in the drivers/coaches/human players) didn't know why it said 69 - 10 = 0.

By the way - no one yelled at the head ref, we didn't have a chance to talk to him until after the next match I believe. Please try to understand where we're coming from and not "bash" one another. We're not complaining, at least not intentionally, its just that we're disappointed in what happened and wished we could have gone to a third match.

Also - the way the call was explained to one of our mentors was as "uncalled for intentional agression" or something along those lines. Which I disagree with, but it is at the referees discretion, so be it. :)

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MOEmaniac 03-27-2005 10:36 PM

358 my opinion hasn't changed of you, I still think you're a top notch team. I remember looking over at your pit and seeing your two blue banners and thinking to myself "Now thats what I call an extrodenary team." An accident like that can happen to anyone, especially since your bot was on the other end of the field and you had the goals blocking your view.

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sporticus99 03-28-2005 12:09 AM

I was the head ref at the Philadelphia Regional and ultimately it was my decision to DQ 358 in match 1 of the final. I care for the feelings of the kids on 293, 358, and 834, and the intention of this posting is to provide them with a detailed explanation of why I made the call. This is the only posting that I will make regarding the Philly final. I will not respond to questions and I do not want to review any video that you may have.

First, I didn't see the sequence of collisions myself. It was a big field with many moving parts and I was unfortunately watching another part of the field. The sequence of collisions happened on the opposite side of the field from my perspective and 3 of my refs had good views. The sequence of collisions happened early on in the match. When I saw 56 laying on the carpet, I knew I was in a tough spot.

I had 3 choices. Choice 1 was to make no call, which would likely have caused team 56 and their alliance partners to question why there was no call. Choice 2 was to issue a minor 10-point penalty for ramming/tipping/rough-play (Rule G25 was updated to give me the 10-point minor penalty option). Choice 3 was to DQ 358 and award the match to 56 and their alliance partners. Rather than making a rushed decision, I let the match continue. Issuing a DQ in the final means awarding the match to the opposing alliance and the call had to be right.

After the match, we scored the tetras and had a lengthy discussion in the middle of the field. 3 of my refs gave me the same consistent story. In summary, 358 and 56 had a collision and bounced off each other. Right after the collision, 56 made a turn and 358 drove forward again. 358 had a very low front and got underneath 56. 358 continued to push forward and flipped 56.

Several factors went into the decision.
1) The collision happened early on in the match. 56 was effectively disabled for more than half the match. This ruled out the minor 10-point penalty.
2) After the first impact, 56 actually made a turn and this led me to believe that 56 wanted to get away. This was really a very minor factor.
3) After the first impact, 358 drove forward immediately. This led me to believe that the drivers of 358 had the intention of hitting 56. The intention of hitting 56 by itself is entirely OK. I honestly believe that the drivers of 358 wanted to hit 56 low and push.
4) 358 got underneath 56 and continued forward to flip 56. From the 358 drivers' perspective, they could not have seen that their robot had gotten underneath 56. They very likely thought they were just pushing low. My refs along the sideline had the perfect side view. This is a key difference in perspective that I hope you could all appreciate.

In summary, 358 had the intention to hit 56, (albeit accidentally) got underneath the side of 56 with a low front, and continued forward to flip 56 during the early part of a match. It was a tough call to DQ 358.

One of my refs kept a list of trouble-making robots and 358 was not on the list. 358 played clean the whole weekend and it was really unfortunate that an accident had to happen in the final. In real life, when accidents happen, usually multiple sides suffer. In this particular case, team 358 and their alliance partners suffered the brunt of the accident. In a way, the refs also suffered as we were forced into make a tough judgement call in the final. To be honest, I would much rather see a clean match.

As Mark McLeod (coach of 358) alluded to in posting #20, I made an attempt to speak with 293 and 834, but they were not in the pit area when I was able to free myself from my duties.

To the kids on the 293, 358, and 834, I sincerely hope that you can hold your heads high and continue your great interests in science and engineering. Don't let a tough call ruin your season. You should be proud of yourselves for building capable robots. Good luck to you all.

Philly Regional Head Ref

======================================================
PS:-I would appreciate it greatly if you could help distribute this to the kids on the losing alliance. I strongly feel that they deserve a detailed explanation from me.
Thanks.

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DarkJedi613 03-28-2005 12:48 AM

Thank you for taking the time to explain everything to us. I'll make sure that its distributed to the members of team 358. Sorry if anything degraded to the referees was said in the thread, we all know you try your hardest, its just very hard to lose in that way.

Can I make a suggestion, however, in the future can you please explain to the alliance why they were DQed between the matches, because honestly - we didn't know what was going on. I realize it would have held up the matches more, but it was already held up for a while and I think it would have alleviated a lot of the tension. Thank you. :)

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Scott358 03-28-2005 01:09 AM

Philly Head Ref,

Thank you for taking the time to post an explanation, which obviously you were not obligated to do. Overall, you and your team did a great job.

Even though I disagree with a few details of how things are recalled in your message about match 1 of the finals, and the call itself, it is obviously your responsibility to make the call and you made it the best you could with the information you had. We must respect that and move on from here, teaching the kids how to deal with such a situation in as positive and constructive a manner as possible.

I do hope that FIRST reviews this rule, and makes it less vague for the Nationals, as it appears as though this specific rule has caused many issues in other regionals, and has been interpreted differently from regional to regional. The rule as currently written puts good people like yourself in a difficult situation... to seemingly try to judge intent, take into account when something happened, estimate how it impacted the outcome, and to pick from extremes (10 points penalty or complete disqualification).

Again, thank you and your team for all your hard work and commitment to this wonderful program.

Scott358
Engineer/Mentor
Festo Hauppauge Robotic Eagles

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sw293 03-28-2005 09:11 AM

Re: sporticus99 post

I appreciate this explanation and I rescind my earlier comment criticizing you for insufficiently explaining the call. I hope you don't hold it against me for requesting an explanation for and presenting my objections to the call during the finals at the regional. Now for my rebuttal.

The intent of 358 was to push 56 low. The drivers of 358 could not have seen that they were underneath 56, so the fact that they continued driving forward should not be held against them. They believed they were still pushing legally. The tipping was entirely "incidental" (I remember you using that word earlier to justify a no call) and "accidental" (your word again, see above). If it was an accident which occured during normal game play then there is no grounds for disqualification!

When I first approached you regarding this call, you told me it was for intetional tipping. Then I brought to your attention the fact that there was no way 358 could have seen that they were getting under 56. Did you consider this possibility in your deliberations before disqualifying our alliance? Probably not, because if you did, then you would not have referred to the tipping as intentional. But even if I could give a good argument as to why you shouldn't make the call, your call was final, as it should be. I had no recourse of appeal, and I shouldn't.

That leads me to my key point, that referees should practice restraint in making these calls that reverse the result of matches. Referees should not decide who wins matches by their discretion, the matches should be decided on the playing field. By imposing yourself in such a manner, you can do a lot more harm than good. That is why referees must always start with the assumption that a play is clean (Hence you cannot make a call on a play you didn't see). Referees are human, they make mistakes, and I accept that. But I'd like to conclude by offering you a nugget of wisdom courtesy of my AP US History teacher: "Errors of commission are greater than errors of omission."

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meaubry 03-28-2005 09:11 AM

Sporticus99, Nice post documenting the rationale. Thanks for posting and even more thanks for volunteering for a difficult job.

Based on the posts by team 358 in response to the actions on the field in Philly, I would hope thatthe discussion could begin to settle down a bit.

By the way, sw293 - Being that you are from one of the teams involved I sympathize with you, but - just because the drivers didn't see that they were under the opponent doesn't relinguish them from wrong doing. It is just as easy, when unsure or in doubt, to back away. Continuing to push puts them at risk - no matter what. The drivers may not have realized that they were underthem until it was too late to do anything about it - or maybe, when realizing that they were tipping them over they could have stopped or backed off.

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sw293 03-28-2005 09:21 AM

Re: sporticus99 post
Are you asking us to be understanding about the fact that the referees have a much better view of the field than the players? That is something I would expect. You wouldn't be doing your job if you guys as a group didn't have a better view of the events than the individual operators on each team did. We don't just appreciate the difference in perspective, we expect it.

As far as appreciating the difference in perspective, the refs are the ones ought to appreciate the difference in perspective. They ought to understand that 358 could not see that they were tipping over 56 in the process of normal game play. They also ought to consider this in their deliberations.

Rest assured I hold no animosity toward you. I simply feel you made a mistake, something every human is guilty of. Would that I never made mistakes! You are well within your rights to disagree with my analysis of the situation and I am glad that you shared you opposing point of view. The fact that I have a forum to present my objections to your call and you have a forum to explain it is a tribute to this website.

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deathbycornchip 03-28-2005 09:43 AM

just to clear things up i have a a video tape of what hapent. it shows 358 backing up from a cap(never goinf forward) and 56 moving twards the atmoated loading zone. 358 did not hit them hard or high. it did not go under 56. it never moved forward. and 56 fell over. 358 was tying to go back to its side of the feild and 56 was going for a tetra. they met. 56 fell. nothing else hapend. if you realy whant i will get the tape on line for all to see.

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Mark McLeod 03-28-2005 10:12 AM

I would prefer not to go to the video. We are comfortable with the way we played the match, and satisfied that the referees decision was well reasoned.

Referees have a difficult time as it is and don't have the benefit of video review.

Thanks

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deathbycornchip 03-28-2005 10:14 AM

well vote all for video say yes all aginst it just say no. i will not let my personal opinon efect the vote.

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meaubry 03-28-2005 10:21 AM

I vote NO, emphatically to the video being posted. Just when it looks like this thread is getting under control, we don't need fuel added to the fire.
Team 358 indicated that they have accepted the decision and have moved on. If you want to share constructive ideas please do so - but don't create even more controversy based on a video which will not add anything constructive to this thread.

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sporticus99 03-28-2005 10:21 AM

I would encourage you to consider the consequences of widely distributing the video. I would much rather see the discussion of this unfortunate event tone down. Thank you.

Philly Regional Head Ref

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deathbycornchip 03-28-2005 10:21 AM

as of right no the no side is winning so i will not post it.

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Rich Kressly 03-28-2005 10:23 AM

OK community.

With video about to be posted, I wanted to say a few words. As FIRST's Senior Mentor in PA I was at the event and had a chance to speak with members of 358 and 293 on the field and I've also corresponded with 293 to answer a respectful question via email. Those interactions I had in the last two days, while tense at times, were gracious, professional, and within the true spirit of FIRST.

Having been a team mentor I know how hard teams work and I know emotions are obviously going to be involved. The same can be said of volunteers and referees. As this thread proceeds, please question what your motivation is and what the possible result will be before you post.

Members from both alliances have posted as well as the head ref himself. While some don't agree with each other, it is in a healthy way and all parties involved have provided empathy and understanding for one another in this most difficult of situations. All parties have also indicated some desire to move past this, as everyone has had their point of view presented and we all understand the true meaning of FIRST has nothing to do with a referee's call.

The decision has been made on the field. The officials' decision is final and will remain so. Interpretation and application of the stated rule is not easy and we all already know it. If you decide to download the video and feel compelled to comment on it here, let's not go over old ground and let's not say anything that will stir up the negative emotions involved.

The point is made, let's grow and learn.

Respectfully,
Rich

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deathbycornchip 03-28-2005 10:26 AM

i need a lace to put the video. i will only show it to people that what to see it. i will not post it openly. plz if you see it dont go and postit all over te palce.

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sw293 03-28-2005 10:34 AM

Those who want to see the video ought to be able to see it. Those who don't want to see it don't have to. Let's not engage in self-censorship.

This thread is fine as long as it does not devolve into a string of ad homenim attacks. If that happens, I will support closing it down. Until then, the discussion should remain open.

About the consequences of posting the video? I can think of a few:
1. The discussion in this thread becomes more informed, intelligent, and productive.
2. G25 is made clearer and less broad
3. Referees are more hesitant to invoke G25

I think civil disagreement and debate is more in the spirit of GP that tightlipped acceptance and forced consensus. If we don't pay attention to these issues, how are we going to prevent something like what happened at Philadephia from happening again?

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Scott358 03-28-2005 11:01 AM

Well said Rich. What's done in Philly is done...we must move on. Also, thank you for all you do.

What I would suggest to anyone who has contacts as FIRST, if it's not being done already, is that they take a look at the rule, any video they have from many regionals where this has been an issue, and how the rule has been interpreted. If they are comfortable with it, then a statement could be made that upon further review, the rule stands as written. If they are not comfortable with it, then as stated in a previous post, changes/clarifications can be made at Nationals.

Since this is such a "hot topic", I would like to see a comment from FIRST prior to Nationals, but either way, FIRST is the best prgram of it's kind, and we're all lucky to take part.

Regards,
Scott358

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deathbycornchip 03-28-2005 12:44 PM

Here is the link. only whatch it if you whant to team 25 and 293 are not resposibule for any thing that hapens because of it. i will acept full resposobilaty. keep this discution calm and polite

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Revolverx7 03-28-2005 01:42 PM

As the driver I would like to clarify that there was no malicous intent. Given my view from the drivers station what I saw was a frame to frame push, and if I had any indication that I had gotten under 56 I would have backed off as soon as I saw it, but thats not what I saw. Becasue it happened on the opposite side of the field and I was driving towards myself with 56 blocking my direct line of site I never saw 56 get lifted from the ground. I guess what I'm trying to say is that had I had known I got under 56 the entire thing would have stopped right there before anything could have happened.

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deathbycornchip 03-28-2005 01:51 PM

also if it was agressive you probly would have gain more speeed but all it loos like you were doing was returning to your side to get a tetra. 56 got in the way.

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Ken358 03-28-2005 02:29 PM

Thanks to all who replied. There really is no bad guy here. We need to all chalk this up to experience and learn from it constructively. Sometimes being a part of a difficult situation can be a growth experience for everyone involved. I think that overall we have had a valuable discussion here. In the end we may not all agree and that is ok. Everyone is entitled to their views. Just because some views are different does not invalidate any of them. We should all move on and prepare to go forward, prepare for nationals, prepare for college, prepare for summer, prepare for next season, prepare for what ever you future holds. Successful people are usually those who can take what they learned from any experience positive or negative and apply it correctly in the future.

Let’s look at the positive. Only six teams had the opportunity to be on the field during the finals, most of us involved in this discussion were there. Being there was a huge rush. To play on the same field with such great teams helped us all push to new performance levels. If you are going nationals, take this experience and apply it to the challenges that you will face there. 293, 834 you were the best. We could not have dreamed of better partners. I hope to play with you again some time. Let’s see some video of the quarters and semis. That is what I want to remember.

Thank You
Ken Tiu
Team #358

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DarkJedi613 03-28-2005 03:19 PM

I agree with our advisors who have posted. It's over, from the students I've talked to on the team, everyone is pretty ok with it and we'll forget it soon enough. Let's just leave it instead of opening up feelings over and over again. Yeah it stinks, but its done. Just look for us at Nationals now. ;)

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sw293 03-28-2005 05:33 PM

I sure bet having won a regional championship and chairman's award dulls the pain.

It is much tougher to deal with when you are on a team that hadn't won an award or made it to regional semifinals in three years until Saturday. It is much tougher to deal with when you were dissed at your home regional by the judges and the teams selecting alliances. It is much tougher to deal with when it is your last chance to go to nationals. To have victory then snatched from your grasp by a referee's opinion is just heart wrenching.

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Der Sichelmann 03-28-2005 05:47 PM

Our team is a little disappionted with the outcome, but we felt we proved our robot and our team was not a fluke and got into two finals in a week so we are not upset.

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RoboticsIsLife 03-28-2005 09:50 PM

Re: sw293 post

I'm sorry you guys got screwed a little bit, and i know it doesn't help any but you had a great bot and theres always next year. Think of it this way, you made it further than you've made it in several years, and you guys did awesome!

~Liz

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Scott358 03-28-2005 10:07 PM

sw293,

We feel horrible having caused the alliance DQ, and our having previous awards does nothing to dull this pain, but we must move forward.

You are a championship caliber team, who put together and lead a very strong alliance that was able to make it to the finals in straight matches (even against the #1 seeded alliance). Who knows what would have happened if there was no DQ and we would have played the third match, but that's never going to happen, so we all must let it go. Dwelling on this will not do anything but eat you up inside.

Your performance speaks for itself (with or without a plastic trophy), and you should look at yourself in the mirror and be proud of what Team 293 accomplished in Philly.

Again, thank you for selecting us, and I hope you find peace with this soon.

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Note: Some responses have been removed as distracting from the core comments in this thread.
For the full thread see: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36603